Exclusive: Pakistan FM Says Taliban Must Be Part of Asia Anti-Terror Fight

Amid a flurry of high-level diplomatic engagements, Pakistani Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto Zardari sat down for an exclusive interview with Newsweek Senior Foreign Policy Writer Tom O'Connor within the chambers of the United Nations Headquarters in New York City.

Throughout the conversation, the youngest-ever top diplomat of his nation discussed an array of issues, including the importance of amplifying the voices of developing countries on matters of international import, navigating the increasingly volatile rivalry between the world's two leading powers and tackling the persistent threat of terrorism plaguing not only Pakistan's own territory, but also across its borders.

Bhutto Zardari, 34, is the millennial successor to a political dynasty that first saw his maternal grandfather, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, take the country's helm in the 1970s as president and later prime minister before he was ousted and later executed in a military coup. Zardari's mother, Benazir Bhutto, would go on to become the first elected female leader of a majority-Muslim nation, but her life too ended early when she was assassinated in a plot claimed by Islamic extremists in 2007.

His father, Asif Ali Zardari, was elected president a year later as the younger Zardari was left in charge of the Pakistan People's Party and, after the dramatic ousting of cricket star-turned-premier Imran Khan in a no-confidence vote in April, rose to the position of foreign minister under current Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif.

Bhutto Zardari spoke directly about his nation's tumultuous political history, urging stability as Khan continued to command sizable rallies—he was shot during one last month— furthering his accusations of conspiracies to silence him. But Zardari expressed confidence that Pakistan was on the right path toward shoring up the democratic ideals of the nation of nearly 220 million people.

And despite the looming threat of long-running tensions with neighboring India erupting into yet another crisis in the region, he argued that Pakistan had much to offer the world in the way of peace during a time of chaos in the international order as Pakistan prepares to conclude its tenure as chair of the G77 and China, a league of developing nations that constitutes the largest negotiating bloc under U.N. auspices.

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

Newsweek: Pakistan has long been a voice for developing nations and, yet still, we see these great disparities between the developed, richer countries and the developing world, not just in terms of wealth, but in terms of security, stability, climate resilience. How do you feel Pakistan has been able to move this conversation forward over the course of its run as chair of the G77, and where is there room for improvement? Are the nations that need to listen listening?

Bhutto Zardari: I think that we've actually had a particularly productive year as chair. Of course, there are discrepancies between the Global North and Global South, between the developed world and the developing world, some of that as a result of chronic injustice in the way that the international financial system functions, some of those as a result of our own policies and decisions based on which country you come from.

I think that, particularly in the context of the COP27 negotiations, the G77 played an important role on getting the necessary consensus of loss and damage added onto the agenda. And that's one manifestation of how we consistently advocate for the position of the developing world and attempt to try and address some of these discrepancies. So, the initial decision to have loss and damage on the agenda after 30 years, and then, finally, the agreement for a financial arrangement and a loss and damage fund is a step in the right direction.

We've also been discussing, during the course of our chairmanship, issues like achieving the SDGs [sustainable development goals] and climate goals, which have been impacted severely by COVID, by the Ukraine war, everything, people's countries record on eradicating poverty. If you compare the statistics from pre-COVID to post-COVID, we have a lot more people in poverty all across the world today than we did before COVID. This is a once-in-a-hundred-year catastrophe. Obviously, health is also an important component of the issue for SDGs.

Simultaneously, Pakistan experienced an almost-apocalyptic climate catastrophe in the form of our flooding. But we weren't alone during the course of our presidency. Across the planet, we've had extreme weather events, from here in the United States, with the forest fires, as well as in South America, and the extreme weather events in Europe, from flooding, droughts in the U.K. to the extreme, prolonged and extended droughts in China and to the monster monsoons that significantly impacted Pakistan. But there are also more severe monsoons in countries like India and Bangladesh.

In order to combat these challenges, particularly for the developing world, the Global South, to be able to meet its SDGs, to be able to meet these climate goals, we need fundamental reforms so that the international system, the international order, serves all of us and not just some of us. That's what we've been advocating for. We have a document coming out of our Ministerial Conference of the G77, which is a consensus document that addresses a lot of these issues.

To say that we've significantly impacted the discrepancies between the Global North and Global South, now that's obviously not the case. But I'd like to think that we have contributed not only to this conversation, but in substantial ways in the form of loss and damage.

Speaking of Pakistan, specifically, and its role in the international community, we've seen how political unrest can have a negative impact on one's economy and status in general. Are you concerned about how the recent events in the political sphere could affect Pakistan, with the lingering popularity of former Prime Minister Imran Khan and his Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf [PTI] party, as well as what this means for Pakistan's stability? Are you confident that this government can break the streak of prime ministers departing early from office?

As far as the streak of prime ministers departing early from office, I don't want to underplay what has happened in the case of Mr. Khan. This is an incredibly important moment in Pakistan's democratic transition. It is historically significant. And I'll tell you why.

While it's true that every prime minister has been removed, has been unable to complete their full term, this is the first time that a prime minister was not removed by the military, not removed by the judicial order, but, for the first time in Pakistan's history, the constitutional vote of no confidence was successful, and a prime minister was removed democratically, institutionally.

Now that's a significant improvement. That's a significant development of Pakistan's democratic journey. Simultaneously, our former chief of army staff came on the record, and he said the role of the Pakistani Armed Forces interfering in the political process in an unconstitutional way was incorrect. And, as an institution, they have decided to reset and fix this. That's an extremely significant development.

Anybody who's been following Pakistan's long struggles through dictatorship and democracy can't underplay how significant that development is. When you have such significant advancements of democracy, all those players, those groups, those factions that benefit from an undemocratic Pakistan, that benefit from a Pakistan where the military interferes in domestic politics and that benefit from a more authoritarian form of state, they react. That reaction is what we're seeing in the manifestation of Mr. Khan. His extremist positions, his very narrowminded populism, his politics of hate, his politics of division, his politics of fiction.

But I believe that those politics will not succeed. And the way to counter the politics of division is the politics of unity, the way to counter the politics of hate is the politics of hope. I would still encourage Mr. Khan to have faith in democracy, to return to parliament, to do his job as the democratic opposition from within parliament. There's no reason to abandon Pakistan's entire constitutional and democratic apparatus because Mr. Khan hasn't been prime minister for six months.

Former prime ministers have been hanged, former prime ministers have been executed, assassinated, imprisoned for extended periods of time. Mr. Khan hasn't been prime minister for six months. I think that we will withstand the associated political instability. And the strengthening of democratic institutions, in the long term, it means political stability for Pakistan.

Another issue that Pakistan has made strides in addressing is the issue of militancy. But there has been a recent resurgence of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan [TPP] attacks and the Balochistan Liberation Army [BLA] is very active in targeting Pakistani personnel as well as both Pakistan and Chinese citizens at a time when we've also seen an uptick in Islamic State militant group [ISIS] attacks in Afghanistan along with separatist activity in Iran. Are you concerned about what these trends mean for Pakistan and the region, and is there not only a national but perhaps also a regional or multinational strategy to address these issues?

I think there's a couple of things there. I think that there's a difference between what we've seen recently in the uptick in terrorist attacks and the overall story of terrorism.

We've actually managed to get a grapple on the issue of terror. Newsweek ran the cover story on Pakistan and my mother's assassination and that we are the most dangerous country. And we've come a long way. We went from having terrorist attacks every week, with thousands of casualties, to a relative calm as a result of our military operations in South Waziristan, in North Waziristan, our national action plan after the APS [Army Public School] attacks.

We really got a handle on this issue, not only domestically, more recently we've managed to demonstrate internationally within the rules-based order with the FATF [Financial Action Task Force on Money Laundering] requirements that we completed two action plans, counterterrorism and on money laundering, no small feat. So, we've seen significant developments and significant improvement, whether it is visible terrorist activity within Pakistan, or the institutional frameworks.

Unfortunately, since the fall of Kabul, we have witnessed an uptick of terrorist attacks within Pakistan. Now, it is not up to the level that it was back in 2006, 2007, but there's a noticeable uptick in these attacks. I don't think that necessarily means that it's just as a result of everybody operating out of Afghanistan, I don't think that's necessarily just the case. I think that the events around the fall of Kabul emboldened religious extremist groups, particularly in Pakistan, even though we had defeated them here, we have broken the backs of terrorists, the visuals coming out of Afghanistan did obviously empower that mindset.

And that is the challenge of their country now under the control of the interim government. We need to see them also build the capacity as well as demonstrate the will to take on terrorist groups within their soil and ensure that Afghanistan does not become a hotbed to extremism.

As far as the regional solution and regional and international engagement is concerned, I think that is important. And that is exactly the sort of cooperation that we will need to develop to not only domestically address this issue, but regionally and internationally to address this issue. If action against terrorists in one country means they just pop over to another, it'll be incredibly difficult for us to get a handle on this.

And do you believe that, as the interim government in Afghanistan, the Taliban can be a part of that regional solution and play a constructive role in it?

It has to be, right? They're the interim government in place in Afghanistan, they've promised the world as part of the Doha Agreement with the United States that they will ensure that their country will not be used for terrorism. So, I think we should engage with them on that, give them the opportunity to demonstrate that—and we can help them build the capacity—but that they have the will to address this issue.

Pakistan has concerns with the TTP. The international community has concerns with al-Qaeda and other groups, we also have those concerns. The Chinese have concerns about ETIM [East Turkestan Islamic Movement] and we share those concerns. So, there's a whole host of difficult people and difficult organizations that needs to be addressed. They haven't turned up in Afghanistan overnight. They've been there for the course of 20 years. I don't expect that the Taliban government would be able to deliver in one year or two years what all of NATO was unable to deliver in 20 years. These terrorist organizations have been there for some time.

I'm not undermining the efforts that are made against them, but they were there. And it'll take time for the new government. And I want to give them that chance to demonstrate that they can take on this issue, that they can deliver on their commitment. The alternate scenario is not something that I think is in anybody's best interest.

Of course, we cannot talk about militancy in the region without discussing the India-Pakistan relationship given the accusations both countries have lodged against one another in supporting militant groups. It appears that India-Pakistan relations have become virtually frozen, despite the fact that the Kashmir issue and the border issue is still very much alive, and we saw just recently a new India-China border clash in the region. Do you feel that the status quo can hold, do you see any room for improvement or are you concerned there could be a collision course between the two nations?

As far as the issue of Kashmir is concerned, I can't emphasize enough how outrageous the actions of August 2019 were. It is not only blowing up multilateralism, blowing up bilateralism, it is a unilateral solution, an insult to the United Nations and an insult to the United Nations Security Council, the violation of not only international law, the Fourth Geneva Convention.

And that is why relations between us, attempts to find a peaceful solution, a peaceful arrangement between our two countries, have been frozen.

Having said that we had difficulties around the Line of Control, I'm pleased to be able to say that we have managed to maintain a ceasefire across the Line of Control. Among those difficult developments, that's a positive. But as long as the underlying issue of Kashmir is not addressed, there is a consistent sort of tinderbox ready to explode in the way that you mentioned. You could have spiraling consequences for our region.

And that's why we emphasize to our neighbors, we emphasize here at the United Nations, and I spoke to it at the United Nations Security Council, that while we're discussing the reform of multilateralism, ways and means to improve the Security Council, Kashmir is an agenda that needs to be addressed.

At a time when the world order is facing one its most serious tests in decades, with the war in Ukraine going on, just coming out of the COVID pandemic and the ongoing threat of climate change, are you confident that Pakistan will be able to navigate the growing divide between China and the U.S. and the visions they present to the world, especially for a country that played a central role in first bringing them together in the past?

I like to think Pakistan has a great relationship with China and has had a great historic relationship with the United States as well.

As far as the road we'd like to see for ourselves, it's exactly in the vein of the road that we played in the past, which was a bridge between the United States and China, rather than a reason for division. We played a significant role in the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries and, even today, partly because it's my neighborhood and we all want to see a peaceful neighborhood, whatever we can do, or whatever role we can play to bridge the divide rather than add reasons for division, we'd like to be able to do that.

I think it's incredibly important. Not only as the foreign minister of Pakistan, but also as just a young person looking to the future, I find it incredibly frustrating. At a time when we have a once-in-a-hundred-years pandemic, the threat of climate change has reached the proportions that we've all been warned about, and this is the time where humanity should come together, where these conflicts shouldn't be the number one priority. We should be finding common ground to be able to meet these challenges.

I often say that I would have preferred if, during the COVID pandemic, we saw [U.S.] President [Donald] Trump and [Chinese] President Xi [Jinping] standing together, saying we will unite to defeat this virus, rather than the divisive conversations that took place as a result of these deeper geopolitical tensions at the time.

I don't believe that this was the time to start another conflict in Ukraine, when we were facing all these extremely difficult challenges, and they actually require all of us to come together for us to not only fight COVID and its health consequences, but the economic consequences that devastated economies around the world. Surely, the solution wasn't to create more economic problems for everyone.

So, I find that incredibly frustrating and I do hope that we are able to create a consensus to move away from sort of hyperbolic partisan politics, and, unfortunately, we're getting increasingly hyperpartisan politics on the international stage. I believe that it's better to find areas in which you agree, where you can work together, rather than focusing on areas where you disagree.